
Minutes of SDAST-CHAT held on Friday November 13 1998

Those participating: Peter Kretschmar, Allan Hornstrup, Kirsi Malmivaara,
Carol Anne Oxborrow, Niels-Joergen Westergaard.

Subjects discussed at this meeting:

Attendance at meeting in Geneva Nov 30th to Dec. 3rd
DD documentation and responsibility
Automatic documentation
DDD.sty file
Using countrate data for restricted image format.


Action Items arising from the meeting:


Action#		On	Due

981113_1	PK	27/11/98	 Provide information about tools
& techniques for automatic documentation of ISSW within the ISCD system
OPEN

981113_2	CAO	20/11/98	Provide LaTeX style file for DD
documents to the rest of SDAST for evaluation.
OPEN

981113_3	AH	 27/11/98		to look into the usage 
of the countrate information provided with the restricted
image mode, especially where it is extracted and where used
OPEN

981113_4	CAO	20/11/98	Complete and distribute summary
of data format versus data structures.
OPEN


*** IRC session log started at Fri Nov 13 09:55:33 1998.
#jemxadr> Hello? END
*** Peter <~pkretsch@isdcul10.unige.ch> joined channel #jemxadr
<Peter:#jemxadr> Hi Carol Anne!
*** malmivaa <~malmivaa@taurus.astro.helsinki.fi> joined channel #jemxadr
#jemxadr> Hi Peter!
#jemxadr> Hi Kirsi!
<malmivaa:#jemxadr> Hi Carol Anne!
#jemxadr> How is everyone? We've got cloudy sunshine here END
<Peter:#jemxadr> Hi Kirsi, nice to have you with us!
#jemxadr> Will Juhani be joining us? END
<Peter:#jemxadr> Around here it's hazy and we've ahd frost for the first time yesterday.
<malmivaa:#jemxadr> Hi Peter, Juhani is not here today, but I am
#jemxadr> I'll just go and see if NJW is in the building END
<malmivaa:#jemxadr> It is snowing here!
*** allan <~allan@apollo.dsri.dk> joined channel #jemxadr
*** njw <~njw@heao1.dsri.dk> joined channel #jemxadr
<njw:#jemxadr> Hello and good morning END
#jemxadr> Snowing ???!!! END
<allan:#jemxadr> Hello and good morning END
#jemxadr> We'll wait a minute or so for Stefan, and then begin END
#jemxadr> It's good to have you back with us Allan END
<allan:#jemxadr> Thanks! 
<allan:#jemxadr> By the way, I can inform
<allan:#jemxadr> you, that we may soon get an even
<Peter:#jemxadr> (Snow in Finland) Why not? Helsinki is practically at the North Pole or in Siberia,
+ seen form here :-)
<allan:#jemxadr> better program than this
<allan:#jemxadr> for ht
<allan:#jemxadr> the weekly chat.
<allan:#jemxadr> END
#jemxadr> Oh dear, I've just written an 8 page document for PLANCK on the wonders of IRC END
<allan:#jemxadr> Then maybe I'll keep my information as a sectr
<allan:#jemxadr> secret :-)
<allan:#jemxadr> END
#jemxadr> Okay it's 1005 by my watch, shall we begin?ENd
<allan:#jemxadr> OK END
<njw:#jemxadr> OK END
<malmivaa:#jemxadr> OK END
<Peter:#jemxadr> Fine with me END
#jemxadr> First: who's going to the meeting in Geneva, and for which days? END
<allan:#jemxadr> I come to the ISDC - mon&tue
<allan:#jemxadr> END
<njw:#jemxadr> I'm going tuesday, wednesday, and thursday END
#jemxadr> I'll be there all four days mon to thurs END
<malmivaa:#jemxadr> We are not coming (juhani or me) END
<Peter:#jemxadr> By chance, I'll be there :-)
<Peter:#jemxadr> END
#jemxadr> It's a pity we won't see Juhani and Kirsi, but I'm sure we can keep them informed. BTW whi
+ch hotel will you stay in Peter? END
#jemxadr> Any comments about the meeting(s)? END
#jemxadr> Next point: DD documentation.
#jemxadr> We discussed this last week, and agreed on a DDD policy which I have described to Tim Lock
+ and he approves of it.
#jemxadr> Basically, we each make our own DDD separately for each application contained in the ADD
#jemxadr> This is 11 applications in all
#jemxadr> Each DDD will be released along with the software delivery for that application and at the
+ same time I will update ADD to reflect any changes (primarily in that application) that may have o
+ccured in the DD phase.
<Peter:#jemxadr> Sounds reasonable to me END
#jemxadr> So at regular intervals this happens: software delivery + DDD release for the application 
++ ADD update. With me so far?
<allan:#jemxadr> Yes, and you are producing DDD templates? END
#jemxadr> Then at the end of the whole delivery process I consolidate the 11 applications DDDs into 
+one single perfect document :-) 
#jemxadr> Prior to that time,however, you're all responsible for your own DDDs
#jemxadr> Any questions so far? END
<allan:#jemxadr> No, just one more comment:
<allan:#jemxadr> After the delivery, the authors are t
<allan:#jemxadr> still
<allan:#jemxadr> responsible for their docuemtns!
<allan:#jemxadr> END
#jemxadr> Yes, there may well be changes during testing and integration, and they're responsible for
+ these. END
<allan:#jemxadr> Exactly, end
<njw:#jemxadr> Well, somehow we have to agree on th level of detail in the application DDD's, the st
+yle etc. END
<allan:#jemxadr> I suggest that CA provide a sty with the required information
<allan:#jemxadr> ro
#jemxadr> I only step in at the very end when each DDD is in it's final (if such a thing exists) ver
+sion END
<allan:#jemxadr> sort of skecht
<allan:#jemxadr> sketched.  (Apologize for all the 
<Peter:#jemxadr> I expect Carol Anne to make a detailed proposal with examples. Didn't you plan to d
+o this anyway?
<Peter:#jemxadr> END
<allan:#jemxadr> typos, I have just been using a differnt type of keyboard for
<allan:#jemxadr> the last 2 weeks). END
#jemxadr> And there's jet-lag to consider, Allan. 
<allan:#jemxadr> :-) END
#jemxadr> The .sty file and mini manual are the next point on the agenda END
#jemxadr> As I said last week I've already made a .sty file and a little manual with examples. It's 
+quite thorough, with counters to help list certain programming features,
<njw:#jemxadr> When will you release the .sty + manual ? END
#jemxadr> However, I've been reading various ISDC software documents,and one of them mentions  progr
+ams that provide automatic documentation, could you tell us more about this Peter? END
#jemxadr> Peter? end
<Peter:#jemxadr> It's been some time since I heard about that. As far as I remember, the idea was to
+ have certain keywords in your comment statements (which should be generous anyway) and have some s
+/w a la awk extract documentation automatically. END
#jemxadr> Hello, am I still connected here? END
<allan:#jemxadr> That is also similar to what I remember
<allan:#jemxadr> But are anyone at ISDC taking inititiative to make a manual
<allan:#jemxadr> for that ?
<allan:#jemxadr> END
<Peter:#jemxadr> Maybe I should take an action to provide a reference and status information. Not ne
+xt week, because I will take that week off. END
<allan:#jemxadr> OK END
#jemxadr> Okay, that's somewhat more modest than what I imagined when I read the document, and it wo
+n't interfere with the tex .sty file, so perhaps I'll go ahead and send you all what I have.END
<allan:#jemxadr> Please do so END
<Peter:#jemxadr> Yes, good idea. And I'll take the action. END
#jemxadr> I just didn't want people to waste their time using my style file and then the whole lot s
+uperceded by some boffo software from ISDC. END
#jemxadr> The other thing I should mention about the DDDs is that they should repeat as little as po
+ssible of the information in the ADD, we're tallking DETAILs here, annotated code, lists of error m
+essages, exits from subroutines etc. It's all in th
#jemxadr> e style file. END
#jemxadr> any comments? END
<Peter:#jemxadr> Not to that, it all sounds reasonable. END
<allan:#jemxadr> Yep END
<malmivaa:#jemxadr> I agree END
#jemxadr> My other thought was athat the last day of the meeting is for DD planning, and maybe I sho
+uld wait till I here some ideas there before channelling you all into my style file. END
<Peter:#jemxadr> A general comment, since I just took an action on me: Should we have an action list
+ from these meetings and if yes who manages it and how? (Not that we *must* have actions each meeti
+ng - we're not ESA :-) )
<Peter:#jemxadr> END
<njw:#jemxadr> I think that any action that origins in these meetings should be logged
#jemxadr> I'll keep the AI list if no one else wants to do it. END
<njw:#jemxadr> and followed by someone - Allan or Carol Anne ? END
#jemxadr> We're NOT ESA???!! News to me ;-) END
<allan:#jemxadr> We will keep the AI list at DSRI, CAO or I will do it. Will
<allan:#jemxadr> be posted on the WWW. END
<Peter:#jemxadr> Sounds good. END
<allan:#jemxadr> I also suggest, if we want to log these meetings, that we take a 
#jemxadr> Yes, I've already posted the log of the last meeting on the net, and since I'm logging thi
+s meeting I can just add a list of AIs on the end of the log END
<allan:#jemxadr> new name each week
<allan:#jemxadr> i.e. #sdast_19981113
<allan:#jemxadr> or something like that.
<allan:#jemxadr> END
<Peter:#jemxadr> And I just wondered why I should change my name every week :-) END
<allan:#jemxadr> Ha HA :-))
<allan:#jemxadr> Anyway,
<allan:#jemxadr> the AI's will then get numbers reflecting when
#jemxadr> That sounds good Allan. I've just opened a text window: So tell me your action item Peter.
+ END
<Peter:#jemxadr> More seriously: My action then is due for Friday Nov 27.
<allan:#jemxadr> they are issued, which usually helps getting them done eventually.
<allan:#jemxadr> END
<Peter:#jemxadr> Action is: Provide information about tools & techniques for automatic documentation
+ of ISSW within the ISCD system. END
<Peter:#jemxadr> Sufficently fuzzy and formal sounding ... END
#jemxadr> Thanks heavens for cut'n'paste. How did mankind evolve this far without it? You now have a
+ction item 981113_1, Peter. END
<Peter:#jemxadr> Thanks! I need my quoto you know ... END
#jemxadr> I should also have an AI, namely getting the *.sty file sent to you all, along with the li
+ttle example document. But I think we should all hold off implementing this file until I come back 
+from the meeting. You can look through and give me 
<Peter:#jemxadr> Anything else on your list Carol Anne? I have a point I'd like to discuss END
#jemxadr> your opinions. I think the *.sty file needs to evolve a little before its ready for real u
+se. END
#jemxadr> No, nothing more on my list. You start on yours now, Peter. END
<Peter:#jemxadr> Regarding the .sty file I agree END
<Peter:#jemxadr> But now to my point:
<Peter:#jemxadr> While trying to have some of the JEM-X datastructures entered on Stephane's WWW pag
+es [often under new names, but that's a different story] I realized that we do not state anywhere w
+hat we do with the countrate date transmitted together with the restricted imaging events.
<Peter:#jemxadr> This data is supposed (AFAIK) to give a high-time resolution, overall detector coun
+trate to help determine strong source variability.
#jemxadr> Shouldn't this be used like some sort of lightcurve? END
<Peter:#jemxadr> But at the current state of documentation it is neither extracted by PreProcessing 
+nor used by us (yes, it's effectively a lightcurve).
<Peter:#jemxadr> So my question is: how should we treat this data, in which structures should we unp
+ackk it and where do we think we'll use it? END
<allan:#jemxadr> I dont have a quick answer - to this goood question.
<allan:#jemxadr> I suggest to give me an AI to resolve that .
<allan:#jemxadr> END
#jemxadr> I have to look a little closer at the available data structures before I could suggest whe
+n/where/how this data should be stored and used. END
#jemxadr> Okay, Allan could you formalise that AI in  a sentence? END
<Peter:#jemxadr> Fine with me END
<allan:#jemxadr> AH to look into the usage of the countrate information provided with the restricted
+ image mode, especially where it is extracted and where used.
<allan:#jemxadr> OK END
<allan:#jemxadr> ?END
#jemxadr> Due date? END
<allan:#jemxadr> I suggest the 20th, but if we agree to 'meet' next week, I'll see what
<allan:#jemxadr> I can do.
<allan:#jemxadr> END
<allan:#jemxadr> Confused?
#jemxadr> Okay, I'll put the 20th. That is next week. END
<allan:#jemxadr> I meant the 27th, but were looking at the 20th the same time...
<allan:#jemxadr> END
#jemxadr> You choose.END
<allan:#jemxadr> I'll try to hit the right buttons:
<allan:#jemxadr> Due: Nov 27
<allan:#jemxadr> END
#jemxadr> Done,you are now the proud owner of AI 981113_3 END
#jemxadr> Actually, I'm working on a complete summary matrix of data formats versus, data structures
+, to see which files exist for which formats.
#jemxadr> Because it seems to me that this problem crops up on a regular basis: suddenly we discover
+ that a particular format cannot be put into one of the current data structures. 
#jemxadr> I send you all my summary for comments when it's finished. END Comments?END
<allan:#jemxadr> No, very good idea. 
<allan:#jemxadr> By the way,  I have to leave for another event.
<Peter:#jemxadr> Great idea. END
<allan:#jemxadr> Are there urgent isues remaining?
<allan:#jemxadr> END
#jemxadr> No, all finished I think END
<Peter:#jemxadr> Not to my knowledge END
<allan:#jemxadr> FIne, have a nice weekend! END
<njw:#jemxadr> Same to you all, bye ENd
<Peter:#jemxadr> OK. So thanks to everybody, "see" you in 2 weeks! Enjoy the weekend END
*** Signoff: allan ()
#jemxadr> Bye everyone! END
*** Signoff: njw ()
<Peter:#jemxadr> Goodbye END
*** Signoff: Peter (Leaving)
<malmivaa:#jemxadr> Bey everyone!
*** Signoff: malmivaa ()
*** Error: Closing Link: oxborrow[~oxborrow@tenma.dsri.dk] () 
*** IRC session log ended at Fri Nov 13 10:56:49 1998.
